i love our government workers. when an vinch worker or policeman does wrong, i call them out. but i love the fact they're the heroes. they're the ones we all depend on. and in this political year let's not have first responders sacrificed on the alter of political expediency from either side of the aisle in any one of us. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts now. the face of horror. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with what someone can do with a semiautomatic rifle. a clip containing 100 bullets, he can shoot a person is second without reloading. he can walk into a movie theater and start shooting human beings like they were plastic ducks in a shooting gallery. he can do it for no other reason he feels like it.

has has the confidence to carry out that and the lack of a conscious. today we got the tiers good look at james holmes, the man in custody for this hard crime. two questions, could we spot it ahead of time? you know the saying guns don't kill people do. what about this person? second question, did ben franklin and others with all their foresight imagine anyone would tote around a weapon like this or were they thinking someone from the neighborhood carrying a musket. was the original intent of founding fathers have people stroll into theaters carrying the kind of firepower this one did. can anyone honestly argue this? and penn state's happy valley isn't going to be happy for a while. first the statue of joe paterno jo pa as we called him. open season for players to transfer where they can. oh, yeah, a lot fewer scholarships and a huge fine besides. let's go right now to this mass murder in colorado.

with me is corbin dates who was in the movie theater. also a forensic psychologist and co-director for the institute of behavioral sciences and law. thank you, dr. brennan. let's start with corbin dates. we have to go to dr. brennan now. what did you make of the picture we saw in the courtroom of james holmes. did he give you any indication he had a problem? >> well, chris, it's very difficult to tell from a picture. we don't know a lot about him. i haven't interviewed him. certainly the things that stand out, of course, is the red hair, which may be symbolic at the time police picked him up and the joker. and his eyes. right away looking at his eyes looks different from other pictures. we immediately suspect the possibility of some type of drug abuse. >> would he have access to drugs or be in withdrawal or what do you mean at this point? >> some drugs are long acting. certainly he may still be under the influence of some drug at a later date or may have been given drugs in jail to calm him down.

if he has a major mental disorder he may have a major tranquilizer in his system to calm down and deal with the le lugs -- delusion. those drugs give one the appearance of being wide eyed or like we saw in court, drowsy, lethargic, falling asleep. >> let's get to the arapahoe county sheriff's office release -- released a booking photo for james holmes. there's that look. can you see that right now? can you see that dr. brennan. >> i do not have it on a monitor but i can see the picture. >> wide eyed, almost affectless. what do you make of that shot? what does that tell you? almost nonemotional, i guess you'd say. >> again, it's different from his other pictures we've seen previously of this well man toured, good looking young man. now we have this kind of wild eyed look. that may be suggestive of mental health problems. but more likely again think about the use of some illicit substance or abuse of prescription medication to give

that type of appearance. >> let's go to corbin dates, a witness in the second row of that theater. thank you for joining us tonight. what did you feel when you saw the picture of that guy in court today, corbin, james holmes. >> i'd say as soon as i was watching the trial on cnn today, i felt completely numb. i felt no emotion whatsoever when i was looking at the face of the gunman. >> did he look dangerous to you? did he remind you of what you saw in the theater? >> honestly, looking at his face, he looked like an average person that you would see probably at a mall or anywhere common. you would not put two and two together if you saw that person and if you were there that night. you would never know. >> compare him to what you saw, the two gentlemen, whatever you saw, compare him to what you saw in the theater the night that everything went horribly. >> the night in the theater, as soon as the door swung open and the person in black walked into

the theater, this person had a stroll like he knew what was going on, like he knew what was supposed to happen, like it was supposed to be a walk in the park and he was going to have a good time. that's what it looked like. >> is there any way you can connect the two? can you identify him as that guy, the one who killed the 12 people and injured, wounded so many others, dozens of others. >> i couldn't have identified him. the person, the gunman was dressed in black. you could not see anything. the only thing available to see was only his eyes. >> how did you survive by the way? glad you did, sir, meeting you now. i'm glad anybody survived that horror scene. the assailant moving with an automatic weapon. tell me about the weaponry you heard. what kind of gun was he shooting? >> seemed like he was shooting a semiautomatic rifle. it wasn't anything rapid-fire but continuous single shots. after the shots they immediately went off after the gas canister he threw into the audience. i immediately went to the floor along with my friend.

in ten seconds i decided i needed to crawl my way out. >> how did you know -- how did you get behind him? he was moving up the aisle and you were bear crawling behind underneath the chairs. how did you do it? >> sitting in the second aisle, he threw a canister into the audience. it went off. two seconds going off he started firing his rifle. at that point i was already on the ground. i started walking my way towards the opposite side of the auditorium. it was still dark. there was smoke everywhere and the film did not stop playing until 15 seconds. it was pitch black inside. >> was he using the projections of the movie on the screen the movie itself as his lighting as he identified and shot and killed many of them? >> i'm sorry. i couldn't understand the question. could you ask again? >> was the only light in the theater the movie being projected on the screen? >> that's correct. the movie being projected on the screen was the only light that was there, plus the lights in

the back far hallways that would lead you out to the lobby. other than that everything in between was pitch black. >> hold on, corbin, let me go back to dr. brannon. i'm a movie buff, i hope everybody remains a movie buff to be blunt about this. because i love them. the experience of going to a theater. here is the question, i saw "minority reports" sci-fi movie that said you can catch people ahead of time, find their projection into the future. i know that's the sci-fi part. is there any way in real life to figure out a guy like this ahead of time. >> prediction is difficult, because not a lot of people do these behaviors. in psychology we talk about the base rate being low. we don't know a lot about these kinds of people. we know in general what increases risk potential and causes people to be more dangerous. we don't know specifically what causes people to do this kind of behavior. >> so we don't know this trigger. so for all the people categorized as psychotic,

psychopathic, lots of them out there, we don't know what it takes to take them from a private hell of confusion and anger to activity that's horrible. we don't know what triggers that, right? >> we do know a number of different factors. like for instance someone who is a psychopath and has no connection or remorse or empathy with other people. we do know people who use drugs and alcohol have a higher rate of those kinds of behaviors. people who are delusional, a small percentage with mental illness, delusional types, they well be so paranoid they engage in these types of behaviors. maybe a neurological condition. someone have a brain tumor undiscovered for a long period of time that would cause these types of seemingly hud behaviors. >> how do you put together the behaviors with high competence. this crime looks to be organized very well by perhaps a single individual, we don't know.

seems like it. here is a guy who held the door open, knew he was going out of the theater, an alley there, knew nobody would be watching, where to get the weapon, how many he could fire. a lot of competence goes into that. how do you put together the competence of a criminal and with what seems to be serious mental illness? >> the overwhelming number of individuals with mental illness are not dangerous. you have the small percentage who are, not all types of mental illness lead to disorganization. some with mental illness like paranoid schizophrenia can plan, organize, think of things months in advance and even plan escape routes. not all mental illness results in disorganization and inability to plan. >> how about the guy we saw in court? could that guy already be thinking through an insanity defense, his behavior, acting it out? >> chris, it's always possible someone does something called malingering, purposeful exaggeration of symptoms for secondary gain. so it's always possible.

it's very difficult to do. less than 1% of all cases that go to trial use the insanity defense. most of them, over three-quarters of them are unsuccessful. so it's not a defense oftentimes used or successful. >> what else has he got? >> we don't know. >> i got to be careful about presumption of innocence in a case so graphic as this. case so graphic as this. let me go back quickly to corbin dates. was there one or two people involved. i've heard you thought there might have been two, not just one. >> i couldn't speculate. but the way from what i saw prior before the gunman walking in acted out, it seemed like there was two. i couldn't speculate, i don't know what what happened before the door shut and went back open. >> i think you told one of our producers you saw the person going out of the theater -- whoever came back in, the one that went out had a goatee. >> yes. >> go ahead. >> that's correct. prior to the movie even starting when i came and got my seat at the theater, a guy walked into

the auditorium after me and sat in the first right row, got a phone call. took his phone call towards the emergency exit, not the lobby and had his foot propped open by the door. seems like he was making gestures trying to find somebody or have somebody come to his location where he currently was. after that i had stepped out of the auditorium to bring my friend in. when we come came back, the movie was starting and the guy was gone and the door closed. >> you'll testify to that in court? >> yes. >> glad you got through it. doctor, sounds good everything you said. coming up next, yes the second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms. and we know what the founding fathers meant, a musket. did they mean assault rifles, with hundred clip magazines. any right between owning a gun and public safety? plus judgment day for penn state. one day after joe paterno's statue was wrapped up, taken

away, the ncaa put the hammer to the football program guaranteeing it won't be competitive in the big ten or anywhere else for a long tile. but is it enough? more republicans criticizes michele bachmann, good guys, good people for indefensible attack on muslim americans generally. the republican party, the old good republican party is coming out and saying enough, enough of this attacking people because of their ethnic backgrounds. and remember this moment from the 2004 republican national convention. >> i wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel. >> that was an unforgettable moment. he's from georgia, i'm from philly, never met a guy like it. he says he regrets having made a challenge to a duel to this lonely fellow sitting here. this is "hardball," the place for politics. an accident doesn't have to slow you down.

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welcome back to "hardball." the shooting rampage in colorado seared in our mind, names like virginia tech, jonesboro, arkansas, columbine. these tragedies never lead to tougher gun control ever. there's a horrific incident, gun control advocates plead their case, make noise for awhile and then the issue fades away. tom's son daniel was killed in the columbine shooting 13 years ago. since then he's become a gun control advocate founding the

group cease-fire colorado. mark halperin is in touch with politics, an msnbc senior analyst. let me go to mr. mouser. i can only have sympathy for you, sir, i can't imagine the loss of a son. that stays with you every moment of your life. why does the need for gun control -- i remember the first time i wrote a congressman, my life was when johnny carson said write your congressman. the only time he ever asked, after bobby kennedy was killed about gun control. and nothing's happened. >> that's right. nothing happens because people forget. they move from one story to the next. they don't see one single solution to the problem. they see there's not been action and assume nothing can happen because of the gun laws. >> you think if everybody could vote online, everybody could vote over 18, would we have gun control if we had a plebiscite,

do you believe that? >> i think if you have a measured action, we did that in colodo. we put the measure to close the gun show loophole in colorado after columbine. when the legislature wouldn't do it, we did it. put it on the ballot. 70% for the pro-state. why? easier for the gun lobby to buy, bully and badger 51 out of 100 legislators than it is to get to all the voters in colorado. give them something reasonable. >> let me go to mark halperin, my colleague. i heard recently, young people who can vote 18 to 21, they are more for gun rights than elders. this is not moving in the gun control direction, mark. >> first, mr. mauser, sorry for your loss. it's unthinkable. we're thinking about the victims and families wounded in that.

that human element is compelling to a lot of people. if you walk around on a coast certainly in washington, new york, boston, los angeles, san francisco, people will look at this human tragedy and say we need gun control. but the public opinion, as chris just said, is on one side. it is not moving in the direction of greater gun control, moving in the other direction. the intensity remains for voters. i think if you look at well meaning people, not necessarily post columbine in colorado, well meaning people who tried to form away the brady campaign and others to pass more laws that would regulate firearms in one way or another their legislative strategy, grassroots has been a failure. people who want to move in that direction need to think of longer terms way to change public opinion. legislators aren't just afraid of gun lobby but afraid of what public opinion is on this issue. >> i'm from pennsylvania originally. you can't be for gun control

statewide in pennsylvania. your goose is cooked. this true back to joe clark in the '60s. you come out for gun control, you got to point of view on your side, you lose the next election for senator. that's the way it works. >> i'm original from pennsylvania myself also, the pittsburgh area. you have a lot of hunters. you can talk to those hunters and you ask them, do they think they need an assault weapon to shoot a deer. of course not. you can them if there are reasonable things can you do. again, you have to present people with a reasonable measure like we did in colorado. the problem is so often this debate comes down to are you pro gun or anti-gun, for the second amendment or against it. there's a lot of gray in between. >> let me tell you where it's not in between. mr. mauser we've been talking tonight about a gunman who may well have used a semiautomatic rifle with 100 round clip in it. with that we've been reading you can shoot off one a second.

you can kill in a sitting duck situation, you could potentially shoot or kill 50 to 60 people in a minute. now, most people would say that's not a hunting rifle. they say certainly not something james madison or ben franklin was thinking about, it's a frightening weapon that could take on a whole regiment of british soldiers or continentals. unimaginable. all these old guys, we've got to go by original intent. does anybody think ben franklin was thinking get people the right to carry any kind of firepower they can put on their shoulder? of course he wasn't thinking that. because he had no imagination for something that existing, i don't think. i think it's reasonable. what do you think? >> that's right. that's why in this political environment here in colorado, we're going to have to ask those people who are running for office, are you okay with 100 bullet clip? is that reasonable to you? do you support that? we're going to hear all the excuses but we have to put that question to them. because i think most reasonable people will say this is insanity.

when are we going to start looking at how other nations don't allow this. >> no, they don't. mark, let's look at this and react to this, mark halperin. how they have changed in the last 20 years on the issue of gun control. 1990, 78%, four out of five americans told gallop gun control should be stricter, four out of five. less strict four to one. say the same. by 2010, that's 20 years later those numbers are very different. with only 44% of americans saying laws should be stricter, less than half. there you see a decline mr. mauser, despite the horror that goes on in your life that goes on and on. the graphic shows people lost zeal for the gun control. >> chris, the graph doesn't include the intensity. anyone in politics will tell you, people who are gun voters tend to be overwhelmingly, the people who are intense about it tend to be people who don't want gun control. again, i'm describing what i

think is, not what ought to be. i should be clear about that the assault weapon is the clearest case, uphill fight people who want stricter gun laws face. you made out the case for the assault weapon. that's been around a long time. we've seen other shootings with assault weapons. we all know that's not intended for hunting. yet you don't see barack obama or hillary clinton when she ran for president or john edwards when he ran for president or joe biden when he ran for president, none of them were out there championing an assault weapon ban. it's dead in congress right now because of public opinion. again, i'll say the well meaning people trying to change the debate on this have spent time and some resources overwhelmed by resources on the other side trying to change it and they haven't. >> last word, tom. >> frankly, i think people have given up in this country. it's clear we go from one strategy to the next. i think people have simply given up.

they have seen nothing has been done by political leaders, they see the power of the gun lobby and they have given up. they don't look at the reality that other free nations don't have this problem. it's shameful the level we have, the level of gun violence and yet we do nothing. those other countries have done something. can you argue those nations are not free? are they somehow less free than us? there's a lot more concern for the individual. >> my brother is a gun guy and i'll tell you there are people who say they don't wan to live in europe because of that. there are gun voters out there as mark points out, who vote primarily on gun rights. that is their voting issue. the thing is there are only a few people like you, tom, for whom gun control is their primary concern. there just aren't as many people on that side. >> i agree. >> thank you so much. >> that is the problem. >> when we bring this subject up, we want you back. thank you. mark halperin, you nailed it. up next, do you remember this?

>> i wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel. >> zell miller, that's the man there has thoughts about our interview eight years ago. that's coming up. that surprised me today. this is "hardball," a place for politics. i look at her, and i just want to give her everything.

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and it's also why, with our partner in brazil, shell is producing ethanol - a biofuel made from renewable sugarcane. >>a minute, mom! let's broaden the world's energy mix. let's go. back to "hardball." for the sideshow, what a side show it is. when you think of the duo of zell miller from georgia and me, i'm guessing it comes down to one conversation. let's look back at our exchange after his fiery keynote address at the 2004 republican convention when he suggested john kerry would arm u.s. forces with spit balls. here's a look at my follow-up to this speech. >> you believe, senator, truthfully, that john kerry wants to defend the country with spit balls. you believe that?

>> that was a metaphor, wasn't it? you know what a metaphor is. he certainly doesn't want to defend with b1 or b2 or jet. i think we ought to cancel this interview. >> that would be my loss, senator. >> you're hopeless. i wish i was over there. i wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel. now, that would be pretty good. >> that was me laughing, actually. anyway, challenge to a duel. zell miller was a former senator. he was from georgia then. he underwent a massive change in political views and supported george w. bush's re-election. zell miller recently got candid about this. according to the atlanta general constitution he said, and i quote, that was terrible. i embarrassed myself. i'd rather it had not happened. miller has taken a back seat in the political scene in recent

years. finally, there's been no shortage of republicans blasting president obama for not believing in american exceptionism. which i believe in, by the way. what has the president done to bring on attacks. recent issue of new york magazine did digging and paired up what we've heard from the president with what republicans have thrown at him. take a listen. >> michelle and i had the chance to succeed beyond our wildest dreams. we're only here because somebody passed on this incredible notion, this exceptional american idea that it doesn't matter where you come from. >> those in the white house today don't believe -- they don't believe in american exceptionalism. >> if you for american exceptionalism you're us, for socialism, radicalism you're with president obama. >> my entire career has been a testimony to american exceptionalism.

>> this has all got to do with the foreign policy led by a president who does not believe in american exceptionalism. >> i don't see that same level of willingness to assert that the united states is, indeed, exceptional. >> the united states has been and will always be the one in dispensable nation in world affairs. one of the examples why america is exceptional. >> i'm convinced he wants americans to be ashamed of success. >> what makes us exceptional, what makes us great is not just how many skyscrapers we have, not how powerful our military is. what makes us special is this idea that in this country if you are willing to work hard, if you're willing to take responsibility for your own life, then you can make it if you try. >> that's why people like this guy. anyway, see what i mean? it's all part of the never

ending effort to convince americans out there that the president is some combination of foreign ideas, socialism, and other-ness. a list of that crap goes on and on. you heard him. let him speak for himself, ladies and gentlemen. up next penn state gets strict sanctions. boy, they're tough. after the jerry sandusky rape scandal. did the punishment go far enough? buzz bissinger joins us nop you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. lay in the s as luxury s.u.v.s, it helps to have an interior full of hand-selected wood trim and soft premium leather... and it doesn't hurt to have a selec-terrain dial that truly performs. ♪

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. mitt romney weighed in on gun ownership following the colorado gun shooting rampage. he believes in the second amendment and doesn't think new laws will make a difference in this kind of tragedy. 14 people are dead after a pickup loaded with illegal imgrabts crashed in texas. investigators are awaiting

tomorrow's reports from apple. sales are to top with 29 million iphones sold. back to "hardball." back to "hardball." the end of an era in a place known as happy valley. in the advance of the tough punishments handed down against penn state by the ncaa, the statue of the late football coach and hero to many, joe paterno, was wrapped up, taken down. there it is hauled away yesterday. today the school heard their punishment. while penn state are allowed to keep playing football, they won't be allowed to go to bowl games for four years among several other tough edicts. this afternoon the paterno family slammed them from issuing the sanctions based on the louis freeh report. they said they, quote, defame the legacy and contributions of a great coach, they say, the

family, an educator without any input from our family or those who knew him best. that's what the paterno family said of the school had done something different. this afternoon i spoke with buzz bizzing -- bissinger about the approval of the statue and sanctions against the university. he's the author of "father's day" and a sports columnist for "the daily beast." buzz, what did you think when you saw those pictures of the statue of joe paterno at penn state shrouded up and hauled away in the night, yesterday when no one was supposed to be watching. >> it was a little bit weird but frankly, i think they had to do it. i have to admit, i sort of felt the pang of sadness about the whole thing. i mine, -- mean, if joe would have made one phone call, this would have all been different. he did not, he ignored. i think the university had to take that statue down. i think they did the right thing. it was a little bit surreal but it's gone. you couldn't have fans walking

by and seeing that smiling face. >> yeah, you can't have a guy who historically placed there who has been known to have covered up child rape. that's what it looked like the university was doing there all the way up the line. let me ask you the ncaa punishments exacted today. no bowl games for four years. paterno's victories, 111 of them ripped from the record book, completely gone. he's not the number one winner anymore. shrinkage in scholarships, can't win big ten. players can split if they don't like the deal. now a big fine of $60 million. is that enough? it's a lot. >> it was a lot. i was surprised. i have to give ncaa chops. i wondered if they would do anything. frankly i recommended two-year ban. this is much, much tougher. that program basically has been deflowered. they are going to be on their back longer than the four-year ban of bowl games. kids are not going to go.

they are not going to be able to compete. i think the ncaa did the right thing. they said your football culture was so entrenched. this is so egregious, the most egregious thing we've ever seen that we have to take drastic action. granted, there was a lot of public pressure on them but i think they did the right thing. yes, it's draconian, it's tough, but i think it's merited. they will still play football so the shop keepers and vendors will make money off penn state. they'll make some money, but i'll tell you this. there ain't going to be 110,000 people going to football games. they are going to be terrible. >> are the people who go up there to happy valley sunday morning, i've been in that crowd there, that incredible ride up the hill to get there, where everything is about winning and the big ten. are they going to understand as they go to games this fall are they going to understand because a revered coach and other authorities at their revered

institution covered up a rape? are they going to get it? >> i think it's a great question. frankly, no, they won't get it. i think they get it now. the minute the football season starts -- i was on the penn state athletic website today. right at the top in the right-hand corner, 40 days, 12 hours and 13 minutes until the opener against ohio university. they won't get it. the minute they sit in that stadium and the minute they start losing to traditional rivals like ohio state, they're going to say, you know what? we got screwed. this is unfair. this is the actions of the few. they won't understand the extent of the cover-up and why the ncaa had to do what they had to do to be an enforcement body which they are. otherwise just make them a cash register, which is basically what they have been in their existence. >> let's talk about the way the value systems are. i guess one of the things schools teach is values. was the value at penn state until now winning is everything, cover up what you have to do even if it's horrific crimes because winning is the only

thing that matters. was it fair to say that that was the values that are in the stands not just in the front office and the management level? >> yeah, definitely. the problem is winning is everything at penn state. every major college in the country. you had s.e.c. media day last week. record crowds. record crowds. this in the middle of the penn state controversy. all these teams want to do is win. and in this case, they turned an eye to a sexual animal who because of their actions, we all know this by now, went on to rape other children. it was protecting that football program at all costs. if it was an english professor involved, he would have been involved in five minutes. anyone else, but anyone else, because it was joe, joe ruled. you know as well as i do, chris, they all took orders from joe, whether he gave them or not. they were terrified of him. all joe i think in the end cared about, yes he could be avuncular, all he cared about was that football team and winning.

>> so in the end, the statue goes down as if he were saddam hussein or stalin or anybody else. >> that's exactly what i thought. i thought it reminded me of an american version of saddam hussein. i had to say to myself, this is a football coach. this is not a big political figure. this is not someone who frankly in the end result really had much effect on our society as americans except for the fact we are so sports obsessed. i think it is the new opiate of the masses. >> i want to say a final word. my comment is the working class kids have been going to penn state for years, middle class kids, regular people from the state of pennsylvania have worshipped that university for so many good reasons. they now have -- they have to live this down now. but they have to understand that whatever is going through them right now, whatever bad news they have to live with, imagine what the victims have to go

through to the last day of their lives. think of that and put it in proportion. do they really want to cover up and be part of that. i hope they say we can take a few defeats, we can't take that on the conscious. thank you, the great author of "father's day" and the great sports reporter for "the daily beast." thanks for coming on. >> thank you, chris. >> he's also the guy who wrote "friday night lights." he's good. up next, more concerned republicans are criticizing michele bachmann's outrageous attacks on muslim-americans. this is "hardball," a place for politics. focus lolo, focus. let's do this. i am from baltimore. south carolina... bloomington, california... austin, texas... we are all here to represent the country we love. this is for everyone back home. it's go time. across america,

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to find out more, request your freeecision guide. call or go online today. after all, when you're going the distance, it's nice to have thexperience and commitment to go along with you. keep dreaming. keep doing. go long. welcome back to "hardball." u.s. congresswoman michele bachmann's request for investigation to root out moles

in the state department has finally motivated enough republican leaders to say enough. bachmann's letters singled out huma abedin to having tied to the muslim brotherhood. writes three family members, her late father, mother, and brother connected to muslim operatives and/or organizations. her position affords her routine access to the secretary and to policy making. she wrote in the letter. now add james sensenbrenner to the list of republicans who challenge bachmann on this one. video by think progress.com shows him responding to a woman who voiced support for bachmann and her investigation. >> let me say that i do know huma abedin. and i think that the comments that were made about her in that letter, whether or not they were taken out of context, were the wrong thing to do.

she could not have gotten the job either as then senator hillary clinton's top adviser or the job in the state department without passing a rather rigorous security clearance. if there was any indication she had any connection at all with the muslim brotherhood, she would not have passed that security clearance. >> bob shrum is a democratic strategist and howard fineman is an msnbc political analyst. i don't know what we're reliving here but i have to say i'm impressed at least piecemeal by these republicans sticking their heads up saying enough is enough. bob shrum first. >> they need to be more. she's on the intelligence committee. she has routine access to some of the most important secrets this country have. michele bachmann and intelligence committee are an oxy moron. they need to get her off there.

number two, i'm glad to see this. but i wish we saw more of it. in may in cleveland a questioner got up and said to mitt romney that the president of the united states barack obama should be tried for treason. romney didn't didn't rebuke the, didn't say she was wrong. didn't do what john mccain did in 2008, which was take the mike and say he's a loyal american, a decent man. i just happen to disagree with him. this is all part of a pattern and michele bachmann is an extreme expression of it that goes back to the administration that has made the president out to be alien, that has targeted muslims, perfectly loyal americans in this country, singled them out, made them enemies of the country. it has to stop. i'm glad to see it's beginning to stop, but a lot more has to be done. >> our own polling says that almost half the country won't give barack obama credit for being the religion he says he is, protestant christian.

8% say he's a muslim, 40% say they don't believe him or don't know what he is. republicans who have come out not to just defend abedin, but to criticize michele bachmann. lindsey graham, ed rollins, john boehner, and jim sensenbrenner for the report we just gave you. to howard, where is mitt romney? i'm talking sheer politics. isn't there a plus for profiles in courage, isn't there a plus in showing you're a man, or a woman, who has the guts to stand up and say, i want you vote, but not this kind of vote? >> well, that would require mitt romney to run an entirely different campaign than the one he's run so far. he's not going to do it. he's playing to and has from the beginning of the campaign, planned to the nativest base of the tea party. people who are afraid of the world. and bob shrum worked for the kennedys. the kennedys stood in the

democratic party for an expanded view of americans' role and america's role in the world. the republican party is going to cripple itself beyond recognition if they don't quit being zixen aphobes which is wh they're doing. there's the huma abedin question and then the question about the republican party's identity. >> let me try to fine tune it. you first. bill clinton wanted the african-american vote. he wanted to get 98%. he took on sister soelga. he didn't like the lyrics. he was willing to separate himself from extreme talk and hold on to the constituency. isn't there a way romney, can't he be for the people who are concerned and worried and still say you have to draw the line on rights? >> he hasn't found it or hasn't looked for a way to do it.

what i'm saying is that if you look at the republican party and you look at the demographics of the country in terms of hispa c hispanics, in terms of minorities, in muslims, so forth, the change in demographers and most americans understand we understand we're living in a global society, multicultural society, the republicans led by mitt romney are going to keep shrinking to the point where they're not going to be able to win an election. >> bob, if you watch any sitcom on any network, they always have a south asian now. african-americans, south asian, that's the face of america, not the republican party today. why don't they admit what is in front of everybody's eyes, this country is getting more diverse? >> because howard is right. the republican party has become the vessel of the resentful, the fearful, the people who are anxious about the fact america is on the way to becoming a majority non-white nation. president obama's election symbolized that, but there's a

group of people in the country who deeply resent and resist that. michele bachmann speaks for them, she spoke for them during the primaries, didn't do well. but mitt romney kowtows to them. he's afraid of offending the right wing of the republican party. if he got elected president, he would be totally beholden to them. he doesn't want to be challenged for re-election in a primary. if he were president, immigrant bashing, muslim bashing, all this stuff would continue to go on from inside the party. it's a demographic disaster for them. >> it's fearmongering. this country is changing slowly over time. the people who live in the country, white, hispanic, black, or south asian are going to be happy in this country. stop worrying. i think its are a great place. i think the future looks good, too. bob shrum, thanks so much. howard fineman, from washington. let me return with what we can do in the midst of tragedies

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let he finish tonight with this crime in colorado. i like you love living in this free country of ours. while i know we will continue to look for clues of how this happens and how to stop it from happening again, i wonder if some avent are not just beyond our control but well beyond. even if we could out law the sae of guns, we have outlawed murder

for centuries and that hasn't stopp stopped. there are millions of people facing it, people who live in their own private grief and confusion and pain, but don't wreak havoc and horror on others. besides, this is big country. millions of us live in our own worlds that have little to do with others. we have no right to go checking on people with all kinds of problems. mental, emotional, or simp lly social. they don't want us doing that and i'm with them. we push on, face the tragedy and hope for the best including that we're still capable in all of our modern complexity to feel the human hurt that comes with others we don't know face tragedy. i think we still do. we're still a strong, caring society of people who can hurt when someone 3,000 miles away has their life robbed from them. when someonee can tell is just like us has their life take